K Strohl
This episode is sponsored by Rebecca Minor, LICSW. For more information about her course, How To Talk To Kids About Gender, please visit: https://www.genderspecialist.com/learn Listeners of this podcast get 10% off with code ALLYSHIP
You can get free tix to the Trans Day of Visibility: Nonbinary Visibility panel on March 31st @ 4 PM PT/ 7 PM ET here: https://www.eventbrite.com/e/trans-day-of-visibility-nonbinary-visibility-tickets-296367201277
Do you do the work? In this week’s episode, Katrina Strohl (they/she/he) talks about why they freely share their identities and how they want to be centered as a person versus their identities when brought up in conversations. Learn about what a "safety pause" is and some tips on how you may be able to support someone if it comes up in any of your conversations. We also discuss how she has a great practice of sending follow-up emails after networking calls by recalling what was discussed and any next steps. Furthermore, he's amassed a huge list of resources across various topics if folks need more support than he's able to provide related to what came up in the call. Katrina talks about how it feels when people mistake them for an ally of groups they belong to and how they came across the word bisexual thanks to the show A Shot at Love With Tila Tequila, although they're now using queer.
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🎙️ Connect with K to learn more about + support their work:
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💻 Sources and resources from this episode:
Blair Imani’s Instagram
A Shot at Love With Tila Tequila | One of Chris Angel’s favorite contestants on the show was the person in the softball tee in this brief clip
The National Black Justice Coalition (NBJC) talks about Inviting In
Full Transcript
Chris Angel Murphy 0:17
Well, hello there. My name is Chris Angel and my pronouns are they/them. Welcome to Allyship is a Verb, the LGBTQ+ podcast that explores and humanizes practicing allyship for the LGBTQ+ community and beyond!
Katrina Strohl 0:38
Hi, I'm Katrina Strohl. My pronouns are they/she.
Chris Angel Murphy 0:42
Well, folks, it's important to let you know that there's also been a little bit of a pronoun update. I had this conversation with Katrina back in - this year, believe it or not, hallelujah! We're catching up. But we had this conversation at the end of January of this year, in 2022. And since our conversation, he now also uses he/him pronouns, in addition to she/her and they/them. So just wanted to let y'all know that.
Chris Angel Murphy 1:11
We first connected over LinkedIn and I have been wanting to ask her to be on the show for a while. In an attempt to diversify outside of my network, she actually saw a post where I was asking for more folks to be a guest. And I was stoked, because I don't know, I was just being very shy and awkward. Katrina has a lot of stories and a lot of experience. They served as an aviation structural mechanic in the US Navy. And in 2018, Katrina decided to take their own life after internalizing the behavior of an unsafe workplace. I imagine many of us listening to this podcast can think of examples of when we've felt unsafe in a workplace.
Chris Angel Murphy 1:57
They now serve others through their work in psychological safety, mental health, and boundary strategy for people who share their identities or their lived experiences. This work includes Absolutely Not!, which is a podcast that I highly recommend. And I really love the branding but I think that's also because I'm an elder millennial. It speaks to me. But it's a weekly live podcast dedicated to providing examples of setting personal boundaries at work, and the vocabulary needed to name harm in those spaces. In addition to the identities that we are about to get into, Katrina also lives with post-traumatic stress disorder or PTSD, major depressive disorder (MDD), and a substance use disorder.
Chris Angel Murphy 2:48
As I'm working on this episode today, oddly enough, I had a call with a friend named Leah, she's a new friend. Hey, Leah, if you're listening by chance. And she actually encouraged me to share some things with y'all that I wasn't sure how to do. But honestly, this is probably the perfect episode, so I just wanted to share this now. At some point in late 2021, I finally signed up for TikTok, and quickly fell down the rabbit hole of the ADHD part of TikTok. And then it quickly turned into the combo of ADHD and autism. And all of a sudden, it was like I saw myself in a way that I haven't seen before. And it was really intense because I found myself laughing at people's stories and just really resonating with what they shared. And it was almost as if all of these years, I finally was given an instruction manual for my brain, so something that's really important for y'all to know about me moving forward is that I do have an official diagnosis of ADHD. I do not yet for autism or ASD. There's a lot of reasons for that, and honestly, I am team self-diagnosis here. And that may be hard for some folks to wrap their head around, and I just want to say, please just respect that, and please just respect that I'm sharing this with y'all because I think these are really important updates that help inform how I will be working with my guests moving forward, how I show up in this space, as well as others. So, thank you for holding space with me.
Chris Angel Murphy 4:21
I also wanted to let you know about an event coming up real quick. I'm hosting a panel on Trans Day of Visibility, which is March 31st. Former guest Zoa Glows, which is one of those listener favorite episodes, will be on the panel, as well as my lovely friends, Maze Felix and Noel Fernando. There will be a link in the show notes as well as on the episode page if you're interested. It'll also be available to view later if you're not able to attend live. Oh, and it's free. So please do come and show up for these lovely humans.
Chris Angel Murphy 4:58
And now, three self-reflection questions to consider as you listen. Please stay after the conversation for three more.
When I think of a queer person, who do I see?
When I think of a veteran, who do I see?
When I think about mental health conditions, who do I see?
And now, here's our conversation.
Chris Angel Murphy 5:26
Okay, now I'm awkward, and nerv- I don't know. I'm like, oh, my God, it's been a few months. [Katrina laughs] I'm like, ahh! And I'm just - I've been so excited about meeting you. Okay. [Chris Angel and Katrina laugh] Okay. You are Black, Samoan, and queer. Can you share what those identities mean to you?
Katrina Strohl 5:45
So those identities mean a lot to me. But I share them freely with people because they're kind of the themes to the story or my autobiography, they kind of give people like, Cliff Notes to what's going to be in the story like, "Oh, I know, there's going to be racism in this story. Oh, I know, there's going to be hostility in this story." To the - for the very least. So they'll be able to kind of, do I want to pick up this book? No, probably not. Or, yes, this is a type of book I love to read! Drama, all of it. [Chris Angel laughs] And so they're, they're kind of just let - informing people very quickly, like, hey, this is what's in this book. You still have to read it, though.
Chris Angel Murphy 6:25
To your point, I love that because something that I've done, and it feels like a good time to quickly acknowledge this for the podcast - when I'm teeing people up, I usually say, "Cool, you identify as blank, blank and blank, you know,” whichever identities feel most important to you to share. So part of my doing that is because, like you said, it's this lens in which to, like, really listen to you and understand you're coming from with these particular experiences, or you want people to like, know these top of mind. Surely, you're so much more than those three identities that you shared with me, um. You're so much more complex and nuanced than that.
Chris Angel Murphy 7:02
And, there has been some controversy online, discourse? I'm not sure the right word here, but saying someone identifies as something can be seen or experienced as a microaggression. And so I've been trying to figure out what that means for me on my podcast. And so as you may have heard, I didn't say, like, "you identify as these things." I just said, "you are these things." Do you feel like - does that feel, like, more powerful to you? Does that feel more - I don't know, I don't want to give you a leading question. But like, how does that feel for you, that difference?
Katrina Strohl 7:37
Hmm. I've actually changed my language around that. My bio used to read "Katrina identifies as," and now it kind of reads like, these are my identities. Because one of the - the forming of that sentence is centering something, centering either the identities or it's centering me. I need y'all to center me, and then we can talk about those things that are included in my story and my life. But yeah, please center me in the conversation about me.
Chris Angel Murphy 8:08
Absolutely, and I think where I still sometimes will use the language of "oh, I identify as," because I think it's also important that we self-identify. Right? So like, I think these are just really layered, [Katrina laughs] really nuanced, though, thank you for letting me insert that here, because it just, it felt very relevant to our conversation.
Chris Angel Murphy 8:33
Well, you've got quite a following on LinkedIn, [Chris Angel laughs] and frequently share parts of your story, including actions and changes you'll be taking or making moving forward. Early in January of 2022, you wrote a post about something called a "safety pause." And it was a situation that came up for you. It's certainly something I've done in the past with others related to my gender and sexuali- gender [Chris Angel laughs] and sexuality identities. Stumbling through that one. But I'd never heard of it phrased that way before and it made so much sense. The moment I read it, I knew exactly what you meant. So first, thank you so much for that language. And secondly, you wrote, for those who don't know, "a safety pause is when you hesitantly share one of your identities in conversation and pause to see how the other person reacts. You kind of hold your breath to see if this person will say some wild shit." Side note, I just love that I can say that right now, thank you. Going back to the quote, "and prepare to act accordingly if they do. You're ultimately gauging to see if it's safe to continue the conversation." So someone did a safety pause with you, and you shared that it made you cry. So I'm wondering, what are some ways someone might hold space for someone else in a safety pause moment?
Katrina Strohl 9:59
So, I recently did a safety pause to someone else, because we are human beings who are constantly growing and, um, I know the phrase coming out usually pertains to sexuality and gender, but I have to come out constantly in so many different ways, and in so many different lights that just really hard to navigate. But recently, I was having a conversation with another queer person in a Zoom call, and we were talking about my history of sexual assault. I was unaware that I wasn't ready to say that out loud yet, and began to kind of pause in conversation and cry. The person on the other side of the conversation just sat in the discomfort and really just from that pause that they gave me allowing me to get through the conversation, allowing me to move forward as I felt comfortable, made me feel safe. They stayed in the discomfort with me, and as soon as I was ready to move forward, embraced me, acknowledged what I had shared with them, and then helped me move forward. So yeah, if somebody ever does a safety pause to you, I highly encourage following those steps.
Chris Angel Murphy 11:18
I'm thinking especially of people who are fearful of doing the wrong thing, or coming off performative. It sounds like for you, in particular, holding that space was really important, and not trying to intervene in any way other than just, like, giving you the time to decide how you wanted to move forward. Is that, is that what I'm hearing?
Katrina Strohl 11:39
Yes, and so on- and they gave me the room to only share as much as I was willing to. A lot of people assume, especially related to sexuality and gender, like, "oh, you told me one thing, let- let's read the entire book together, right now. Let's read every single chapter together about everything you've ever gone through in your life." And that's just not what I'm about, not what my whole mission is about. That's not what normal human beings are about. I'm not willing to sell you the whole cow if you only bought a steak. So that's important to keep in mind when coming around these, these are very sensitive topics. Like, these chapters, maybe just like myself, haven't been read out loud. So when they're being shared with you, and those pauses occur, you need to be cognizant of that, and just accept them for what they are and what they mean to that person.
Chris Angel Murphy 12:31
That totally makes sense. And I guess I'm wondering, too, is it helpful at all - and I guess it kind of depends on your relationship with the people in the room, right? Because there may be several people in the room. For you, would it feel supportive if someone reached out again, maybe a day later or so just to check in with you, or?
Katrina Strohl 12:53
Um, definitely. I think this per- this particular person, it was actually, it's actually for a speaking engagement I have coming up. I have, I have to talk about my his- my queer history. And so their, their follow up plan after the con- first they acknowledged what was talked about, and like, "if you feel comfortable, we can definitely talk about it more. I'm gonna send you an email after this, just kind of covering what we talked about. If you want to talk more, I am here for you." So not really setting up that time, but just allowing that person to know, like, “I am here for you, I can support you no matter what, if you need other resources to support I can definitely provide that to you, just let me know how you want to be supported.” So, yeah.
Chris Angel Murphy 13:37
And I love what you said around talking about, like, what someone needs to feel supported, because especially through this podcast, we're learning there can be some common themes, but also at the end of the day, people may need different things. And so, as someone wanting to hold space for someone else, something that I've learned is, okay, it may seem helpful for me to say, "How can I support you?" And for some people, they may be able to articulate that. Some folks may be so caught up in the moment, and this has absolutely happened to me where it's like, "I don't know what I need, but I know I need support." So for those, again, wanting to like, hold space for someone else, what are some things that tend to be helpful for you that someone could offer? Outside of just holding space - which is great, I'm not trying to minimize that. But like, is there anything else that someone could offer that would feel good to you?
Katrina Strohl 14:35
Sometimes, especially if this is your first time reading your chapter aloud, or it's your first time having a conversation about something that you've had no idea was emotionally activating to begin with, it's best if it's recounted to you from the person that heard it. So that follow up email is something I do after any conversation I have with people if I'm networking with them. I always send a follow up email just saying like, "hey, this is what we talked about today, um, is there anything you want to move forward with or that you want to talk about more?" And more often than not, people will respond to that just saying, like, "oh my gosh, I forgot I even spilled the beans on that, like, in that conversation. I completely forgot, or I blanked out." And they will tell you what they want to move forward with. It is not really our job to be a savior for everybody. Um, and it definitely isn't something we want to take on as individuals. Like, I will not be able to save everyone. And even if I hear my own story in other people's stories, I can't really implement like, "Oh, this is what worked for me, so here you go, here are all the things." So really allowing people to move forward as they want to, and just saying like, "hey, I do have resources pertaining to what we talked about." If not, then just let it go, I guess. Yeah, hope that answered the question.
Chris Angel Murphy 15:56
Yes. Well, I mean, you answer however you want! [Katrina laughs] I'm just - I'm here to just hear what you have to say. But what I love about that, too, is the boundaries. And goodness, I - the savior complex can be a lot, especially with white people, so I want to acknowledge that. And I think that's a great reminder, especially, again, for this episode, is that, yeah, we don't have to jump in or act like we have to save someone. That's not the point. And that's definitely not the point of allyship. It's... what - yeah, I don't even think we have enough time [Katrina and Chris Angel laugh] to really get into all of that today, so I'm not gonna put that on you at all. But yes, that - we really need to be mindful of, what is our intention when we're trying to support someone? Are we trying to earn some sort of brownie points? Is it a genuine connection we're attempting to create? Do we really have that person's best interest in mind? So, I love that as a really great reminder of why we're doing this work. So, thank you. And - oh, you're clapping. I love it. I wish people could see us. [Katrina laughs] There was clapping happening, so, um, I'm taking that as a good sign. Was there anything else that you wanted to say about the safety pause before I jump to another question?
Katrina Strohl 17:03
Yes. So, as someone who has done the safety pause numerous times for numerous identities, I know what it sounds like. There were a lot of people on that post that you, um, talked about that had no idea what the fuck that was. "I've never heard that before. That's not a real thing." Or - and so, to those people, I would say, have you listened for it? Have you taken the time to - we learn about active listening in like, elementary school, and then afterwards, we never really talk about it again. Like, okay, I know to nod, I know, to say "mm-hmm." I know to say, blink my eyes and like, do the things, but you really need to incorporate the skills to acknowledge the emotions that are being expressed around you. That safety pause holds so many different emotions. It's like, anxious, it's like, ready to like, j- like, it's so many emotions. And without having heard that pause, you're missing so many emotions that are being expressed around you. So, yeah, if anything else, just to start your allyship journey is to really just be cognizant of the emotions that are being expressed around you.
Chris Angel Murphy 18:18
Yes. What I would add to that, too, is you're not going to be a safer space for everybody. And so it could be because it's just not a community maybe that you know how to support, and that is important to acknowledge. And, something that's come up in another episode, um, another podcast episode I've done is whether or not you even have capacity to hold space for someone and being honest about that. Because if you can't be with someone in that moment, it's important for both of you to get what you're needing and, and be honest about that, too, and then have that conversation. So for example, that could be something like, "you know, I, I heard you, I want you to know, I heard you, it's not something that I feel that I can really support you with right now, if that's what you're needing. Um, you know, and I just wanted to be honest about that, so that you can get the support that you need." Because it's a, it's a bid to connect, and we don't want to ignore it. That's, I think, some of the biggest harm we could do, is ignoring it, or attempting to hold space with someone who we really just can't. So, um, yeah, how does that feel for you?
Katrina Strohl 19:27
That sounds really good, and it, um - one of my biggest - I mean, I'm all about boundaries. So one of my biggest boundaries is, if I don't know what you need, or if I can't really personally speak to what you need, I have like, huge, a big ass list of referrals, a big ass list of people who can definitely help you, and if you need that, I can provide that to you, especially if I'm, like, overbooked or over capacity. But having that already implemented in my processes and like, I have that list already made up makes it so much easier for me to say that aloud. Like, “hey, I don't have the space, but here are people who do.”
Chris Angel Murphy 20:05
Oh, I love that. Um. [Chris Angel laughs] Well, we had a chat before our conversation today. And you talked a little bit about coming out professionally as queer a few years ago. I'm wondering how that process felt for you, and what led you to share that part of yourself professionally?
Katrina Strohl 20:27
So, when I started speaking more publicly about advocacy for yourself, more specifically my mental health conditions in the workplace, a lot of people started navigating towards me because of that advocacy and because of the conversation around that, but they didn't know who I was, and they had a lot of questions about that. I thought I was gay for a really long time, because that's the only vocabulary I had. And then, um, I came across the show, it's called A Shot at Love With Tila Tequila for anybody who know-
Chris Angel Murphy 21:02
Oh, gosh. Oh, gosh. Ahh!
Katrina Strohl 21:02
Yeah, right? Right? Okay, anyway. [Chris Angel laughs] So that is where I got the word bisexual from, which we will get into. Um, and then as I move forward, I have... I have used the word queer now, because of where I am in my life and my journey. I don't know a word that describes where I am. And so I use queer in my transition, because I'm still looking for it, I'm still trying to find the vocabulary that I need to describe myself. So for now, it's a placeholder. But I came out professionally in LinkedIn spaces, because I needed people to know that, that the human being they are following has multiple identities. The human being you are following has multiple - is multifaceted, is a whole person. And - because a lot of people were shocked when they'd come upon episodes of Absolutely Not! and I'd mention my queerness, or I'd mention bisexuality, and they'd be like, "oh, I had no idea." And when you're - and you're constantly having to, like, um, inform people on like, who you are. So I just got really tired of it and put it straight in my bio. That's why, that's why my identities are in my bio.
Chris Angel Murphy 22:17
Yeah, that makes sense. And oh gosh, there's so much [Katrina laughs] there, there's so many things I want to ask you after that. Um, something I've noticed, in particular with the Black community is that - I mean, outside of even just AAVE - is there are terms, words, etc, that will come out because they don't want anything to do with, like, it just, some of the terms that may exist today just don't feel encompassing of all of their experience. And it might be through, like, a white lens or something like that, or European roots, etc. Right? So there's that part. So, for example, "same gender loving," or SGL, I've seen as one of those, um. And then another would be - and of course, I'm blanking on it now, because all of the trains of my brain go everywhere. [Katrina laughs] Give me a second. [Chris Angel sighs]
Chris Angel Murphy 23:15
Another one I've come across recently is this concept of inviting someone in versus coming out, right, because my understanding of those, and I'm curious to know if, um, your thoughts on these and if that's something you've heard before, and all that, because I don't know, I don't want to make assumptions. But my understanding of coming out is it's just very centered around assuming that cisgender and heterosexual are the defaults. And so then the onus is on us to have to come out and share who we are, which isn't fair, because we also should never be trying to force anyone to come out if they don't want to. So then there's inviting in. And I love that. I love that because again, it reminds me of a bid to connect that someone can take or not if we offer that. And it just feels more personal, it feels more, like, there's just more control on our end. Because, you know, no one should be making assumptions. But if we want to invite someone in, if we decide that we trust them enough - maybe they pass the safety pause test or something, you know, and we want to share with them and have that more intentional connection. Like, that - I love that. I love that a lot more. And I still default to saying things like coming out because I know it's gonna take people a while to, to make that kind of transition. So I guess I'm wondering, how does that language feel for you as far as, like, coming out versus coming in, or - or sorry, coming out versus inviting someone in?
Katrina Strohl 24:49
Mhm. I - first, I'll say I hope one day we never have to use this fucking language again. [Katrina laughs] But secondly, like I said before, coming out has been used particularly for sexuality and gender and everything on there. But, it's also a way for people to describe being different in any aspect whatsoever. And it's so weird that people were still centering, like, white male dominance and white supremacy by using the language of, like, coming out, when ac- when it actually, I'm just like, alive, a human being living my life. I didn't get to come out because I was just living my life. I didn't have the big surprise or tell anybody because no one ever told me that when you say "hi, my name is Katrina Strohl. Also, by the way, I'm queer." I didn't know that that was an action that you were supposed to be doing. I just lived my life. So I hope that one day we never have to do this again. But inviting in sounds a lot nicer than, um, coming out. It sounds like there's a community waiting for me on the other side, saying like, "you're, you're more than welcome to come in this door if you'd like to. If this is not the door for you, then go ahead, you can go find another door." But yeah, I just hope that our language moves away from centering what is "the norm," and people are just - there are doors, you can open them.
Chris Angel Murphy 26:22
Yes. And heavy, heavy air quotes on "the norm" there. Yes.
Katrina Strohl 26:29
I guess I don't look "queer enough" to a lot of people. And so I've had my rainbow flag or a rainbow in my headline for a really long time. And I remember a Black gay man reaching out and being like, "it's so nice to have an ally who's just so happy-" and I was like, what the f-? Do allies have rainbow flags in their-?
Chris Angel Murphy 26:51
Sometimes, they do.
Katrina Strohl 26:52
Okay, good for them!
Chris Angel Murphy 26:53
They do sometimes.
Katrina Strohl 26:54
But that immediately was like, wow, am I not gay enough? Like, am I not? Am I not? So I had to create a post and just saying like, "Hi, I'm not a fucking ally. I live, I live the same life that you do." But it's also - that's another reason why I'm so out and vocal about it, because apparently people that look like me could not be, could, could not be queer or could not be bisexual. It just doesn't fit what people have in their brain of who belongs under the rainbow. So, um, that's another reason why I'm so vocal about it. Because I'm constantly trying to get people to realize that there are pictures in your brain that need to be updated. When you think about queerness, who the fuck pops up? When you think about mental health conditions, who the fuck pops up? When you think about being a veteran, who the fuck pops up? If it's not me, then you need to update your pictures.
Chris Angel Murphy 27:50
Wow. I'm just sitting with that [Katrina laughs] for a moment, because I love that. Part of me is like, can we just start a podcast called "did they really just do that?" [Katrina laughs] And then it's me just interviewing all of these people who are, like, historically and currently marginalized, and talking about the times when someone, like, mistook us for an ally versus actually being part of that community. It's the stuff that makes you want to flip a table. I won't do that [Chris Angel laughs] because that'll really mess up our podcast episode today and hurt my equipment here. But, um, yeah, there's, there's something about that, that - I mean, first, I, I really resonate with what you shared earlier with saying that you don't feel queer enough or that you're being read in the way that you want to, because that's something I struggle with as well. Because even within our community more broadly, we see stereotypes and they're - we just see them a lot. And it's hard to see, like, anyone else then who doesn't fit that exactly is considered kind of an outlier. And so that's challenging, right? So there's, there's that part of it.
Chris Angel Murphy 28:52
But like, yeah, there's just something that like, really hurts when someone assumes I'm an ally. Yeah, there's just - it just, it feels really invalidating. It feels really, like, almost like, patronizing also, you know, there's just a lot there. And I just, I wonder if instead, would you have been open to someone saying, "Oh, hey, I noticed you have the rainbow flag in your headline on LinkedIn. You know, what inspired that?" Would that feel better than just making, like, the assumption of like, "Oh, you must be an ally."
Katrina Strohl 29:27
Um. Yeah, uh.
Chris Angel Murphy 29:27
[Chris Angel laughs] If we're trying to have a conversation around it.
Katrina Strohl 29:30
What is the rainbow flag for? Like, why, why do you have a rainbow flag in your headline? Then I will answer the que- "Oh, because I'm queer." So. But yeah, any question coming with an assumption or coming with the intention of not to learn about me, but to assume some shit about me, then wouldn't be just for me.
Chris Angel Murphy 29:51
Because that's the other thing too is - again, coming back to boundaries - is sometimes I imagine this may have happened for you, but I don't want to speak for you and your experience. But, yeah, sometimes people just, like, think they can ask me all sorts of stuff because they'll see something on my LinkedIn or my Instagram. And I'm like, excuse me, [Katrina and Chris Angel laugh] like, first, let me give you my Venmo, like, and then - and then you could start asking me stuff, but. And maybe there needs to be some language around this too, similar to, like, safety pause or something that I don't know what that'd be right now, but. That moment, there's got to be a word for this. There's, there's got to be something that really encompasses the complexities of this particular experience I'm about to share. But, when someone finds out that you're part of a particular community, and then the next thing they say is, "can I ask you something?" [Chris Angel and Katrina burst out laughing] We're making faces at each other. Just like - there's, there's gotta be. I mean, and it's - I mean, especially with like, dating, newly friends with someone, like, anytime, I'm like, oh, no, like, what? This is gonna be bad. I don't know. But um, yeah, I guess, was there anything that you wanted to share around that, like, particular experience?
Katrina Strohl 30:59
I mean, that's why I'm so heavy into boundaries. Like, I love boundaries so much, because it's so weird how people will say, "Oh, this, this type of person deserves boundaries, but these people don't. Like, obviously, they want me to talk about their queerness. Or obviously, they want to talk about their mental health conditions and their journey, because they post about it so much." No, the fuck! I'm still a human being, [Chris Angel laughs] I still deserve boundaries, and you taking that away from me, or taking my power away from me, just because of what I share on a daily basis is unjust and unfair.
Chris Angel Murphy 31:35
Yes. When I'm going to the doctor, I shouldn't have to educate them, I shouldn't have to put that hat on. And if I want to, I should have a choice in the matter, because I'm going to them for a reason, you know. And there's a difference between someone asking me about my personal experience versus, like, asking me to speak on behalf of an entire population of people who also claim this identity. So there's that part too. We've got some clapping going on, so like. [Chris Angel laughs] I really need to turn this into a video, [Katrina laughs] I need to follow your lead of your podcast. But, um, yes, okay, great.
Chris Angel Murphy 32:07
Well, you teed this up a little bit earlier, so I definitely want to make sure we talk about this. But we had briefly talked about how queer as an identity has become a safe space of sorts from things like bi-erasure, biphobia. And I've jokingly said to several people in my life that bisexuality has some bad PR. Like I don't, I don't know what it is that we need to like, have a marketing overhaul or what, because some of the same things I learned when I was in high school are still true today. And I'm going to be, like, 35 this year, so I'm like, that's a long time. But you know, bisexuality in itself, it just continues to carry lots of stigma and misconceptions today. So I'm curious - and, you know, there's so much I'm sure that you could share around this. But why do you think people outside of the community are embracing "queer" much more than terms like bisexual, while also acknowledging that sometimes that can be true instead of inside the broader LGBTQ+ community as well?
Katrina Strohl 33:07
Just like you said, it's marketing and branding. A lot of people are using the "Q word" for marketing it for actual marketing campaigns and branding. They don't want to learn about the community, or all, all the letters that are included in the community. We have heard people say a lot of things about those letters, and they just don't want to learn it. So they're using the Q word to just mark it like, "oh, we do love the rainbow! We have a rainbow and we have the Q word, so that should be good." And I talked about where I learned the word bisexual from. I learned it from A Shot at Love With - like, that was a really bad show. [Chris Angel laughs] It was not good. And because of that the word bisexual has been, like, hyper-sexualized, and any images or p- persons you see, that belong to that identity, bisexual, are often very sexual, and very, just, um, promiscuous, um, when seen in films or in shows.
Katrina Strohl 34:06
So - and I, I personally have never met a bisexual person that's like that. I've never, ever met someone who identifies as, as bisexual who's like that. And so it just goes back to like, who's marketing? Who's using these words? What are they using it for? And, yeah. But people - so people outside of the community are using it for their own personal gain, are using it, and people inside of the community - I mean, Q, the Q used to stand for Questioning. I think it stands for quee now, but I'm using the Q for questioning / queer because that's what people outside of the community understand. But I'm currently questioning where I belong under the rainbow. So yeah, it feels safe to me because it's still the Q that I remember and loved.
Chris Angel Murphy 34:53
Yeah, and it's not to say that when we're talking about queer as a sexual orientation or sexual identity that it doesn't still carry some sort of stigma and all that. It's just like you said, I don't think it's near to the degree that bisexual has been dragged all of these years. It's not even like that we're trying to, like, slut shame anyone or something if they were someone who sleeps around and things like that. It's just that we're only getting that one narrative. And so then that - people think, again, like, that's the default. That's how all bisexual people experience their life and their identity and stuff. And we're like, uhh, it's more than that, you know? And then you're conflating things like polyamory, things like that, where again, there are so many boundaries. I had a guest on recently who was talking about how like, honestly, it's more conversations than anything else, because it's a lot of navigating. What do you need? Okay, here's what I need. And okay, these partners are here, and let's talk safe sex. And maybe like, there's certain people I'm with that, like, I don't have sex with, so yeah. There's a lot there.
Chris Angel Murphy 35:54
But oof! So we've talked about a lot of ways - we've talked a little bit about how, you know, someone might be able to support you, because we talked about the safety pause. We've also talked about a lot of ways that we can get this stuff wrong. [Chris Angel laughs] So I'm curious, can you share about one time you felt truly supported by someone, especially related to your queerness, and your questioning, and your journey of figuring out who you are under the rainbow, and, and what they did to show up for you?
Katrina Strohl 36:25
So I've made wonderful connections on LinkedIn. And one of my strongest connections is a DEI practitioner. And she focused mainly on anti-racism and just anti-Blackness in the workplace. Since having been connected with me, um - oh, and this makes me want to cry, because I haven't told her yet, but I'm so very proud of her. She has, she has included information on disabilities, on mental health, and on, um, the LGBTQ+ community in her resources. And she did that without me talking about it, or as - she went out and looked into it, she added it to her own shit, she wrote, like, and now it's just included in who she is because I am included in her network. And, and I really don't fucking know if she did that for me, but it just makes me feel so safe. There are so many people who claim to be about this shit, and they're not about this shit, or they are only about this shit for some pieces of me. And so as - and I saw it very slowly, she just very slowly started including it in her posts, and in her messaging and in everything. And that is where I feel safe, for people who are able to accept all of me, all of the pieces of me, and who are ready and willing to include that in everything that they're about. So, yeah, if it ain't that I don't want it. [Katrina and Chris Angel laugh]
Chris Angel Murphy 38:11
I mean, fuck yeah. And like, those listening, if you also want to shout "fuck yeah." Um. I'm also reminded why I don't like videos, because [Katrina and Chris Angel laugh] like, I'm kind of, like, ugly crying right now. Because that, that, that's so beautiful, because that is exactly a great example of allyship, is... I mean, having this podcast, I've had so many people who have reached out who are allies, well-intentioned, and they're like, "oh, I want to be on!" And I'm like, there's a reason I'm only talking to people from within the community, because otherwise it's going to become the brownie points show. And again, like, the intentionality of allyship is doing something without expecting the "thank you," doing something without expecting someone to, like, acknowledge it. It's just because it's the right thing. And it's gonna have a far reaching impact. So, gosh, thank you. That - I love that. [Chris Angel sighs] Wiping the tears away. Both of us are. [Chris Angel laughs]
Katrina Strohl 39:10
Oh, I will also add that she doesn't have a fucking rainbow flag in her headline, like, [Chris Angel laughs] she - um, that, okay. I know we're talking about the positive parts of allyship but -
Chris Angel Murphy 39:20
Sure.
Katrina Strohl 39:20
There are so many people on LinkedIn who have the rainbow flag and then they have "ally" shortly after, and it screams homophobia to me. It's, it's giving like, why did you add the ally afterwards? Like, why don't you have the rain- just the rainbow flag?
Chris Angel Murphy 39:37
Yeah, yeah, cuz I think - okay. Yeah, that - ooh!
Katrina Strohl 39:43
Ah ha ha!
Chris Angel Murphy 39:43
My brain is just - yeah, no, I, I love that reframe because, yes. And when I think of something as seemingly simple as putting one's pronouns, or lack of pronouns, in their email signature, we don't need to then have a disclaimer and say, "Oh, but I'm not gay or trans," right? We don't we don't need to do that. So. And we do want to acknowledge when a place is safer, but I think what our conversation has talked about a few times now is, it's the actions. If you have a rainbow flag on your website, in your store, but you misgender me within five minutes, take that damn rainbow down! [Katrina and Chris Angel laugh] You don't deserve it! Like, because, that - you're, you're giving a really mixed signal. You're, you're not in alignment, your values aren't in alignment, you're just trying to go after the gay dollar. And like, we don't make as much to, like, the straight dollar and, like, the cisgender dollars, and then you start adding all the other, you know, marginalized identities. So no, you don't deserve our gay money if you can't get it right.
Chris Angel Murphy 40:44
So, yes. That, I think, it just - it's one of those things that can come off very performative. So, yes, thank you. Thank you for sharing that. Whew! Oh, gosh, I mean, this... I'm just really appreciating this conversation. [Katrina laughs]
Katrina Strohl 41:00
Yes.
Chris Angel Murphy 41:01
So, we - I think we've already shared several allyship tips within this episode. However, what's one allyship tip you'd like for everyone listening to consider?
Katrina Strohl 41:12
Do the work. I know people say that in so many different forms, like, on so many different platforms, but just like I talked about earlier, my dear friend put in the work to create resources for other people to be allies for this community, without asking a member of the community. So before you go out of your way to ask me, like, "oh, why don't your pronouns that?" Or "oh, blah-" look it the fuck up, like, simply go to Google and type in, like, "they/she pronouns." I promise you, there is a resource out there. I promise you, somebody else has done that work for you, and you just fucking have to read it before coming to me and asking me, as a person in the community.
Katrina Strohl 41:57
"Ally" is turning into a very weird word at this point, but for me, it means somebody who does not belong to the community and is advocating for that community. So if you are somebody who falls under the umbrella of not belonging to this community, but wants to support this community, please do some work on your end. Look into your own sexuality, look into your own gender, look into the biases that you're carrying with you, then come to me and maybe we can have a conversation. While this is new for y'all, allies, it is also new for us! Like, I didn't have all these words. I told you I was, I was gay for like, a really long time. That was the only word that was available to me. So, yeah, just really understanding that, that while y'all are growing in your allyship, our community is growing as well.
Chris Angel Murphy 42:47
Yeah, that's why it's important to also take a moment. And if you have that kind of relationship with somebody, ask them, like, what does that mean to you? Because even when I do my training and stuff now, it's very rare I put definitions in what I'm saying. I'll give it something, like, loosely just to give us something to, you know, work from as a foundation, but understanding that, because of intersectionality, someone's geographical location, their age, things like that, there may be reasons why they use certain language over something else. Or it may mean something different to them with a different nuance, because of, again, who they uniquely are. So, yeah, it's a lot. I don't know.
Chris Angel Murphy 43:30
I will say, I do get scared about telling people to just Google stuff too, because there's, like, a lot of misinformation out there, so. I guess the only thing I would want to add to that is just like, be mindful what you're reading. Understand what you're reading, like, who is that person? Are they from that community? Can it be a trusted resource? And I don't mean that it's got, like, a .org or something after it, or that it's a .gov or something like that, because I don't want to undervalue people just because we're, like, not in some peer reviewed research, you know, journal or something, that our lived experience doesn't still matter. But be mindful of what that resource is. Is that, like, its main focus? Are there other good resources on there, and do other people share that out? Because all of that matters, too, because otherwise there can be some harm done there. So I guess that's the only thing I wanted to make sure to add.
Katrina Strohl 44:22
Yeah, always be super critical of your resources. I recently followed, like, an anti-racism page on Instagram for, like, years, to find out it was ran by a thin white woman. And, and, and just - I was not critical of that resource. And I wasn't able to see, oh, wow, this information was coming through that lens. Like, we talked about the themes and the lenses that our identities - so to know that that anti-racism source was coming through the lens of a thin white woman, like. You - then I was able to look at what they had been projecting out and been posting, and it was like, oh, wow, that is definitely coming through that lens. Like, it informed me a little bit of, like, where their information is coming from, the themes throughout their information, and yeah, so on and so forth. So yeah, always be very critical of your sources.
Chris Angel Murphy 45:17
And that's why Blair Imani especially has a huge following on Instagram, is such a great resource, because she's also asked for folks who are in educator spaces, etc, that we be transparent about who we are, so people can decide to make an informed decision on if they want to get information based on our unique lenses. Right? Because like you said - and I know exactly which account you're talking about, I know exactly which one! [Katrina laughs] But yeah, that, that transparency is important as well, even if it's some sort of nonprofit or anything. Be transparent about your values and things like that, because we don't want there to be some big reveal because someone figures it out, and it's like, well, dang, and then we feel, I don't know, almost lied to or something like that, in a way. So, yes, let's be transparent about who we are.
Chris Angel Murphy 46:09
Okay, so I totally fangirled, and you know what? I am not going to apologize about that. Absolutely Not. Eh? Ehh? Ehhh? Okay, listen, I love puns and dad jokes, and it's just a nod to their podcast, okay? This is what you get with me. No refunds. But, Katrina, wow. Thank you so much for your time and for sharing your stories and your thoughts. I had a wonderful conversation with you, and I'm grateful to amplify your work. If y'all are on LinkedIn, seriously, please go follow him because their posts give me so much to think about, and she really helps to highlight things that may not be on my radar.
Chris Angel Murphy 46:52
And now, the final three self-reflection questions to consider before you go.
4. Do you have any pictures in your mind you need to update?
5. Have you ever done a safety pause?
6. Is there any allyship work you’ve been avoiding doing? And if so, why?
Visit AllyshipIsAVerb.com for any resources and a full transcript of the episode. And remember, sometimes allyship means do the work.